In Conversation: EP7 - A Beautiful World

NAOMI JOHNSON: Naomi Johnson, Kanien’kehá:ka (Mohawk) Bear clan from Six Nations, has worked in the arts for nearly fifteen years as a curator, arts administrator, professional artist, and community arts facilitator.  Naomi served as Artistic Director for seven years and then as Co-Executive Director (2018) of the Woodland Cultural Centre, where she curated and programmed annual exhibitions and performance art events. In June 2019 Naomi accepted the position of Associate Director for imagineNATIVE, having the unique and rewarding opportunity to be mentored by then outgoing Executive Director, Jason Ryle. In June 2020 she assumed the role of Executive Director for imagineNATIVE, she very much looks forward to continuing her work supporting Indigenous talent within the film and media arts sector.

DORI TUNSTALL: Elizabeth (Dori) Tunstall is a design anthropologist, public intellectual, and design advocate who works at the intersections of critical theory, culture, and design. As Dean of Design at Ontario College of Art and Design University, she is the first black and black female dean of a faculty of design. She leads the Cultures-Based Innovation Initiative focused on using old ways of knowing to drive innovation processes that directly benefit communities. 

With a global career, Dori served as Associate Professor of Design Anthropology and Associate Dean at Swinburne University in Australia. She wrote the biweekly column Un-Design for The Conversation Australia. In the U.S., she taught at the University of Illinois at Chicago. She organized the U.S. National Design Policy Initiative and served as a director of Design for Democracy. Industry positions included UX strategists for Sapient Corporation and Arc Worldwide. Dori holds a Ph.D. in Anthropology from Stanford University and a BA in Anthropology from Bryn Mawr College.

ZAHRA EBRAHIM: Zahra is a public interest designer and strategist, focused on shifting power to people who are typically underrepresented in institutions and systems. Her work has focused on deep, community-led approaches to policy, infrastructure, and service design. She is the Co-Founder and CEO of Monumental, an organization focused on supporting an equitable recovery that builds fair and just cities and institutions. She is an Executive Advisor to Deloitte on Cities and Design, and a senior advisor to political and public interest initiatives across the country.  Zahra has taught at OCADU, MoMA, and currently teaches at the University of Toronto Scarborough. She has served on the boards of Jane’s Walk, St. Stephen’s Community House, Toronto Biennial, Canadian Urban Institute, and is the current Chair of the Board for Park People. She serves as an advisor for a range of organizations including Toronto Public Library, Progress Toronto, and Code for Canada. She was recently named Next City’s Vanguard “40 under 40 Civic Leader”, Ascend Canada’s Mentor of the Year, one of “Tomorrow’s Titans” in Toronto Life, and one of WXN’s Top 100 Women in Canadian Business.

SY BLAKE: Sy Blake is a 3D Artist with a background in Graphic and Product Design, a Graduate of the Central St Martins School in London, with a BA Honours in Product Design.  For many years Sy has worked to bring to life, unique representations of black identity through his skills in 3D character modeling, focusing on black futures and black joy peppered with hints of futurism, sci fi and fantasy. Sy has collaborated with Toronto Based artists and companies like Adidas Canada to help bring his characters to 3D print. And is currently working on his own line of Art Toys. When not working on his own creative projects and collaborations, Sy works as a 3D Modeller for the award-winning Guru Animation Studio in Toronto on the new ‘Sesame Street’ show coming to HBO ‘Mecha Builders’.

for full bios: harthouse.ca/wellbeing

Transcript

Ezi: 0:13

Ours is a difficult world, it is full of so much trauma and ugliness. And yet, it is also overflowing with deliberate and accidental beauty. On today's episode, I talked to four thinkers, creators, and imaginators, who tell us how they create spaces for beauty and wellness through design and the arts. And while one may wonder whether or not imaginator is a real word, it is undeniable at the work that Naomi, Dean Dori, Zahra and Sy do is indeed real, impactful and thoroughly delicious. So without further delay, here's episode seven: A Beautiful World. Welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. You know how it goes. First question, principle question is, "What does it mean to you to live and to be well?" And I think I'll start with Zahra first. Zahra?

Zahra Ebrahim: 1:15

Okay. Well, thanks. It's such a beautiful question, and it's a hard one to answer, because it changes. I think, in this past year, in the past few months even, it changes. It used to, maybe, for me change seasonally, what it meant to live sort of harmoniously, and together with nature, and especially it where, you know, where I am. And we're all of us, I think are in Toronto. Being really intentional about looking at the seasons and following the seasons. And, you know, I think that that's hard enough.*Chuckles* Layer in sort of the wellness of care that you need to be considered of in a pandemic. You know, for me, living well is, when I feel like I'm consistently living harmoniously with my values. I think that's a really hard practice to embody. It's nice to think about, it's nice to talk about, but when I'm sort of consistently showing up with, you know, a collectivist mindset, versus focusing on myself, and only my well being. You know, my values around flow, and you know, what we focus on grows and trying to focus on places in my life and in my community, in my work, where there's flow, and open mindedness and connection, and fairness and justice in all my choices, and then joy.*Chuckles* Just, you know, joy needs to be so central to the choices I make. And I think sometimes when you're doing work that's around fairness, justice, and equity...you know, I've perceived myself having to...I've watched myself having to take on, or taking on an identity that, you know: it's serious work, so I have to act serious. And, you know, I think, you know, all of you are such an embodiment in different ways of, you know, joy and play, and, and change within your work, um without it having to be, you know, overly serious all the time. And, and so that, that's sort of my starting point. And I, I would say that, that's when I'm living harmoniously in those things and all my other values. When I'm living consistently, I can see them applied through all of my choices. I feel like I'm thriving. You know, all of the other things that that I might associate or we might associate with wellness come more naturally. Because I'm not fighting with myself all the time *chuckles*.So that's maybe where I'd start.

Ezi: 3:43

Yeah, I love that I'm not fighting with myself. Yeah, I'm Igbo. And so we have this notion of Chi, right? Yeah. And they say that if you're at odds with your Chi, you're truly, you know, a shaken broken type of person, because it's like to be at odds with the most innermost, deepest, most honest part of yourself. So your wellness is not fighting with yourself.

Zahra Ebrahim: 4:07

Well, and I might add just one more thing, because I brought this for all of you today. Love and rage. I don't know if anyone's read this, but I love this book. And, and I think to your point, and it doesn't always mean to be happy, right? It means to sort of embody my discomfort, my anger, all of those things, but in a way that's productive and still lives, my values. It's not just about being like happy all the time. It's about being able to channel and put out into the world, my authentic reality and so that it's creating space for others, you know, to do the same. But I don't think living well just needs to be like, you know, you can't see this on a podcast and it's like this arm movement I'm doing. *laughter*. Um, but I don't think living well is to have to sort of be... I think lightness can come from, you know, our anger too. And so so just want to make sure that's clear.

Ezi: 5:03

Thank you. And Naomi, how about you?

Naomi Johnson: 5:07

And really, I think my takeaway from that is, you know, that happiness, it doesn't mean being happy all the time, I really love that because I try my best to do things...like I took a career path in within the arts, right. And that's because that's truly something like. As a child, I love to paint and I love to create, and, you know, even I think I was maybe 989 years old, and I would play Art Gallery in my grandma's hallway with my cousins and my sister, you know, we have our juice cups, and we pin our art on the wall*chuckles*. And we put plays on in her basement, and like it just, and it was kind of the first thing I was really good at that I got, like that positive reinforcement from the adults in my life, you know, teachers, my grandparents. So like, I always knew like arts was gonna be it, I just, I don't think anybody ever, you know, as a young child dreams: "I'm going to be an arts administrator one day!"*laughter* So kind of the path to get there was not like a straight road by any means. But I think for me, it's having purpose is what really is about, you know, this living well, and knowing that I'm holding a really important space. But you know, for so long, there wasn't a lot of agency for, you know, Indigenous people within arts organizations. And like, I'm really mindful of that, and being able to actively work in a place where I get to support, you know, Indigenous people, you know, working within the organization, but also, knowing the work that we're doing is building towards creating better representation, better presentation, and better opportunities for Indigenous creatives. Like that, just, it just fills me up with so much purpose and joy to be able to do that. Yeah, I'm thinking of all those things I wish that I had had along the way, you know. So for me purpose.

Ezi: 7:12

And what a beautiful thing to, you know, live in the joy of your childhood too. You know, when it was like, truly pure, and good. And to, for that to have carried on to your adult life, like, to me like bringing in some of that innocence and that childhood into our now is so essential to me anyway, for, you know, staying well, staying joyful, staying light. Dori, how about you?

Dori Tunstall: 7:40

Um, so for me, I think it has to do with meaningful connections. So,*chuckles* like, the other day, we're I, I'm running this initiative called, It's my Future Toronto, so having 8-12 year old BIPOC, youth design the future of the City of Toronto's response to COVID-19 and, and racism. And I was so overjoyed, like that whole morning, because, like I was having meaningful connections to the people who, who've been working really, really hard now for about six months to make this workshop happen, to all the community organizations that were supporting their youth, the City of Toronto supporting, and then having the direct connection to about 20, again, BIPOC youth. And so for me, it's the realizations when I'm in that moment of like meaningful connections to other people, whether that's through my work,*chuckles* and a lot of it is mostly through my work. Whether it's a meaningful connection to myself, you know, through dancing or, or, you know, Dean Drag every morning, or any of the things that I do that is about the, the authentic expression of who I am in the universe. And then just having a meaningful connection to all the things around me and in the sense of, in spite of COVID-19 still feeling connected to nature, like I wake up and I have a view, a far view, of the lake but it's still I chose the place because there's a view of a lake. So every morning, I get up and I'm somehow connected to the sky and I'm connected to the water and I'm connected to the*chuckles* concrete and I'm connected to the land. And then I think of all the multitudes of people that I'm you know, sharing oxygen with, masked up of course, *chuckles* but at least sharing oxygen with. And that I'm connected to them in a meaningful way as well. So for me, wellness is about that flow of connectivity where I'm open enough in myself, I'm well rested, well hydrated, and well fed, well danced, and movement so that I don't have to pull back all the energy just to sustain myself like I can, I can, I can be generous in this sharing and exchanging of energies with with anything and everything in the universe. And so when I'm in that sense in meaningful connection, then I feel that deep sense of wellness.

Ezi: 10:29

And that has all the more weight now, right in these times where we have to physically be apart. So certainly meaningful connection.

Dori Tunstall: 10:39

Well, and I think that's the interesting thing, because I, you know, for a long time, I'm like, Oh, I have to physically be present with people to be connected. And I'm, and you know, and even though my experiences with people are quite mediated through technology is like look we're connected by the work that we're doing, we're connected by the dance, and the music that we're listening to, were connected by so I'm, I'm quite surprised that in, in the space of my lack of physical connectivity to people that like, like I say, the spirits seems still as deeply connected, the energy flows still seem to be very deeply connected. And that's, you know, and again, it would be amplified, I guess, if my physical bodies was present. But I'm surprised the degree to which, which, again, in spite of that physical connectivity, that the flows are still there, the energy is still moving and connecting with one another. Yeah.

Ezi: 11:39

Thank you. Sy, how 'bout you?

Sy Blake: 11:43

Um, I would say, it's a combination of what everyone else has said before. But for me, specifically, I would say, authenticity, connection, and balance are the things that I'm sort of figuring out work for me in terms of living well. Prior to the pandemic, my answer would have probably been a lot different. But during this time, I'm focusing really on, you know, self reflection and working out what allows me to live well, what makes me feel at my best, and, and recently, just living more authentically, within myself, within my environment, within my connections, has really opened up the door for me to feel mentally well. Do you know what I mean? I think because I've been, for a long time, just kind of, I guess, shrinking in different environments and different spaces, and being able to live authentically now has really just, it's been a whirlwind. But it's been exciting as well. But that, for me is definitely a big part of, of living well. And then the connection part is, is something that I'm once again, expanding a lot more during this pandemic time, and really reconnecting and connecting, making new connections with people who I admire, and people who have admired for a long time, and kind of just left in the back of my mind, and saying, Please, family members who I probably didn't speak to as much before, I'm reaching out to them and having great connections. And then balance as well, for me is a major major one, I'm a workaholic. And I will say where you see me now is where I am most of the time during the day, during the evening and in the late hours of the night. And I find that that does give me an instant sense of gratification, I do feel great in the moment. But at the end of that time, I can sometimes feel exhausted and really spent. And I'm sort of finding a way to recharge is great. And so walks by the water, and long chats of a good friend, Ezi, just getting outside of my space is another way to be able to find that balance and not just focus on you know, one dimension of my life, there's so many other facets to each of us. And exploring all of them is just as important, as you know, focusing on the one thing that you think will give you the success or whatever it is. So finding that balance, I think is is vitally important for my wellness now.

Ezi: 14:09

And so in terms of your work, tell us about your work, and how you conceptualize and realize beauty in what you do.

Naomi Johnson: 14:21

So there is, there's two aspects to my work. There's the job that pays me and then there's the job that I do for the extra added bit of fun. Because I'm not gonna say that my actual data isn't fun, but there's the extra part that I want to kind of put a bit more of a personal stamp on and that I really enjoy doing. And, and how I come up with... how I conceptualize is literally just taking in the world around me. One of the themes within my work is looking at, at specifically black people and putting them into really sort of beautiful and futuristic environment like this image that had behind me here is one of the characters that I've worked on. And just looking at different body types. And looking at, just in this particular industry that I'm in-- animation--there aren't a lot of Black characters like this, there aren't a lot of characters that show diversity. And it's starting to change, obviously. But one of the things that really drove me in the beginning, it still drives me to this day is most of my characters are characters of colour. for that specific reason, I wanted to fill a gap that I saw. And so everything that I do is kind of led by that I'm always sitting down, I'm like, "Oh, I haven't seen a differently abled person in a while on TV, or in a Pixar movie!" And so I'll probably try and figure out a way to do that. And that's something that I'm working through now. And, and so yeah, just conceptually, I think it's something that just comes from my lived experience. So I don't sit down actually structure anything out, it's just like, Oh, a thought will pop into my head and that in itself is a concept. And that's something that I'll action out into, into what my work ends up being.

Ezi: 16:02

Thank you, Naomi, how about you?

Naomi Johnson: 16:07

Um, I think for me, I've been really fortunate that I've had a lot of great mentors in my life. And I think, you know, being able to pick up how they have conducted themselves with the work they do, and how they create relationships with people. And so it's like that process. And like, I mean, specifically, I'll name like, Tom Hill, who is like the former museum director of the Woodland Cultural Center, I did a lot of my young adult learning through him. And this is a man who, you know, he, he got to meet the Queen of England, he got to meet Andy Warhol. You know, the list goes on, of like all the notables, but he was able to, you know, sit down and have a meal with in the work that he did, as an Indigenous curator in the era of which he did that work. But at the end of the day, he would still sit and have lunch with all of us. And he, like, there was no air, it's like, it was truly like, it's just how our community is, you know, like you're, you know, you're within this circle, and that hierarchy just doesn't...it doesn't work, it doesn't fly. So I try to, like, incorporate that in the work that I do and the teams that I lead. I think that also I have to give a really a special nod to Jason Ryle, who is the former executive director, who, you know, he worked with me for a year when I was associate director and I learned so much from him, like he's so generous and kind. And so my decision making and finding, as I'm in this role as executive director at imagine a lot of times, I think, what would Jason do?*Chuckles* Yeah, I think just learning from good people and like taking those good things with you, and actually making them active with how you, you know, you how you conduct yourself with people that you work with every day. And then the other thing that I know I conduct myself through is the good mind teachings, which is like Haudenosaunee teaching about everything you do and the intent of all your actions, it goes back to the good mind and check yourself, you know, "are you thinking in a good way and are you doing this for a good purpose? Are your intentions truly good"? So that's also kind of my core values that I kind of conduct myself, and it's beautiful, because, you know. It means we're all relating to each other in a genuine and good way. And I'd like to see more of that in the world.

Ezi: 18:46

Yeah, absolutely. I was just having a conversation with a really good friend of mine about hierarchies. So just, as you mentioned that and the idea that, you know, we really need to learn how to relate in difference, and to be able to accept all the ways in which people can show up and understand how to relate along with that. And so I really like about that notion about the circle and, you know, a place for everyone and value to everyone that can be shared, right. That's awesome. Dori, how about you? What's the work that you do and how do you conceptualize beauty in it? Well I say about the work that I'm doing at OCAD University right now is in our academic plan, our principles are decolonization, diversity, equity, and well, we have others, but those are the ones that I'm most focused on at the moment *chuckles*. So for me, what's been quite beautiful in the last four years is just the ability to create space, and for the possibility of bringing true, true diversity and perspectives, lives, experiences, cultures into the institution in a way that it's....that it's deeply embraced. So, you know, we're right now in the middle of our second round of Indigenous cluster hires. We're trying to hire for new indigenous faculty member in the Faculty of Design. We've just...last year, we had our very successful black

cluster hire: 20:28

so bringing Black faculty into the faculty design for the first time in 144 years. Before that, we had our first round of Indigenous cluster hires. So again, bringing into the Faculty of Design, you know, our first full time Indigenous faculty in 142 years. So for me, all of the work that it's taken to dismantle those structures of exclusion within the institution, whether it's the relationships we've built with community. So our recruiting doesn't go well, because we don't have the networks to be able to connect with community, so repairing those relationships, so that those networks exist. Whether it's, you know, changing, you know, getting the institution to acknowledge its racism and white supremacy, and how that's been a barrier to change; the work that's been done in partnership, you know, with, with consultants, but also internally, to, to bring that level of awareness and activity, right, *chuckles* not just awareness, but activity into the institution has been quite beautiful. And, and the fact that, like, we've opened up possibilities for other institutions, not just on the academic side, but other, you know, corporations and, and other organizations where, you know, before people were like,"Oh, you couldn't do this kind of thing", you couldn't, you couldn't make a call to the black community that would, you know, generate a response of over 150 people when it's done, like, you can't do that, right. So all of those places that use those excuses, to not move forward, like they don't have those excuses anymore. And so they're, they're taking up in many ways the responsibility of moving forward. And that's, that's been really, breathtakingly beautiful, because it means, you know, as an institution, you know, like, we're not the only one that if we change other institutions, and we change other businesses, then we're actually changing the whole system, in some ways. And, again, potentially changing the entire Zeitgeist of, of how we, how we engage in our processes of decolonization, and creating real, real space for different ways of knowing different ways of being different ways of making, into, into all of these institutions. So for me, that's that work is quite beautiful, and sustains me when I'm exhausted from doing the work*laughter*. That does sound extremely beautiful! And working in post secondary, we know that that can be a monumental task to get not only awareness, as you say, but action, right?! Like real meaningful action, that engages not only the space that you're in, but the spaces surrounding it that make the space that you're in what it is, right. So thank you for that work. Zahra how about you?

Zahra Ebrahim: 23:52

Dori just made me change my answer. [Group laughter] I want to share an anecdote, which doesn't have to be my answer. But I want to frame my answer in an anecdote, which is, you know, I was hired as a faculty member at OCAD when I was 24 years old. And I was, you know, in the community faculty that I was part of, I was the only racialized faculty member, you know, there was ageism. I mean, I mean, I was 24, maybe, maybe the ageism people were trying to coach me and, you know, my work, there was very much these like meta levels. So in my classroom, which was really the only place I had any sort of control over, my goal was to be the facilitator of all of our students. And I wasn't that far removed from their experience. It was a really awesome sort of soup to be in, because I was part of it. [My goal] was to support them to be unapologetic, unapologetically themselves, right? Half the work in the classroom was helping them trying to voice why they chose design to their families, right? Like it was, that was the work and then at meta level I was trying to unapologetically be myself in the context of this faculty that was like, "What are you doing in the classroom?" I'm like I'm talking about identity and justice and design and people were like "talk about, you know, an environmental project. Talk about like, you know, let's have an output, let's have an output!" And and I fell in love in that classroom actually, and in all those classrooms I taught for six years at OCAD. But I fell in love with the process part of it, which was, you know, even just, I remember taking all the students one day, I was like, take your chairs, we're going to, we're going to Nathan Phillips Square we'll play musical chairs. And their only project was to try and get city officials to play with us. And every city official was like, "I don't have time for this!" Right? And to just watch what happens, right, as we start to step into our professional identities, and if we don't have a rootedness in who we are, that's the reaction. And not to say that they're bad, it is not, it's not to sort of demonize anyone, but just to say, when we're not rooted in who we are, and we don't see that as part of our design work, then, you know, you get lots of other ambient effects then, some of which we don't want to see in the world. So how I see beauty is that, right? Like, I'm the sort of odd traveler, in my work at reading Monumental, together with Kofi Hope, we kind of work in two spaces. One is sort of revolutionising institutions, and then filling the gaps. You know, galvanizing our grassroots communities that we're so deeply connected to, and having them cross pollinate. And, and, and a lot of that is process work, which is invisible work in a lot of ways and invisible work, I find a lot, you know, a lot of joy in, but I think the piece for me is helping people trust themselves. And I see it now and and I, you know, I teach at U of T now and I teach the University of Toronto Scarborough. And the students there are working, you know, three jobs, they're not keeping up with like downtown urbanism. They're like, just really happy to be in the room and have a real conversation. And and the work there is the same work of, you know, it was when I started at OCAD, which was, how do we help students trust themselves and trust their voices within; trust their identities, know their identities? And then and then how do we, you know, for me, as a designer, I get so fascinated with how do I amplify the conditions for success for people to thrive. So that's where the sort of Human Centered Design lens comes in, which is like, if I'm hosting a workshop, and the four of you are in it with me, I want to know, your favorite snack.*laughter* I want to know what chair you're sitting in, like, I want to know how to set the conditions up so that when you show up, you are primed to be comfortable, to feel like yourself, you know, all of that. So that process of, you know, kind of co-designing the conditions for people to show up, is as important to me, it's all of the outputs that I create through my practice. And it's weird work, right, because, you know, it's a designer without an art with everything. And so people find that very hard to reconcile or to, you know, or historically have found that very hard to reconcile. And, and then the other thing I'll just quickly mention, which has been um....you know, I think when I started out and and my world was architecture, and you know, every door was slamming in my face when I was talking about sort of people centered architecture, um 15 years ago. And what I learned was that the people who were interested in talking to me, I had to be curious, about anyone who was interested *chuckles*. And not just like the fancy people, you know, that I thought I wanted to talk to,*chuckles* but I was like, if anyone showed up, like, and they were like, tell me more. I sort of learned very early that people will surprise you. And and equitable curiosity generates so much beauty in the world. Being equitably curious about all of the offers that the universe sends your way, is a way to generate beauty. And I and how that plays out now is you know, I'm as interested in a student as I am in you know, a leader of a capital L leader. Not to say that a student's not a leader. So that equitable curiosity is part of where I find so much beauty in my life and in my work, because everyone delights and surprises me. If I'm open to it.

Ezi: 29:15

I did promise everybody a delicious conversation. And this is that. Very, very nourishing

Naomi Johnson: 29:22

I was drooling as you were speaking, I was like, keep talking. [Group laughter, with joy].

Zahra Ebrahim: 29:27

Now getting your emo because Dori opened it up. She's like decolonizing design and OCAD, so all of the, you know, 24 year old tears are coming. So...

Dori Tunstall: 29:38

Virtual hug. Virtual hug, that's a common response now. [Group laughter]

Naomi Johnson: 29:43

I find it interesting because, um, you know, I went thinking about my time in university and what I actually got from the experience. Um, I really can't pinpoint specifically what I gained after leaving University and I really wish that you know, if I could, you know, put the clock back, I'd be a bit more specific and a bit more authentic about exactly what I needed at that time. And hearing you speak there about, um, you know what you... that kind of symbiotic relationship that you have with the students and kind of you get something from it as well, um I always think that's the best way to learn, and the best way to teach as well, right? Um, kind of imparting, you know, just these little gems that get people to live more authentically. But I think from that just comes like, the beauty of work, it comes from really beautiful lived experiences, really diverse experiences, right? And getting people to tap into that, I think is when beauty really shines through. And I think about my time at University it was so regimented, and it was very structured, it was, you know, we've got this project for you, do this. And you didn't really have much of an opportunity to inject personality into that. And I think that's why a lot of time, I struggled during that time, you know, because I wasn't being authentic and actually putting personality, and I was living with a structure I thought I was supposed to be living in. And so it took me years to kind of realize that. So hearing you say that I'm like, God, if there are teachers out there doing this work, this is amazing, you know, there is hope for the community.*laughter* That's amazing.

Ezi: 31:15

And even just the space to figure out what is authentically you.

Sy Blake: 31:19

Oh yeah.

Ezi: 31:20

Right? To be able to ask those questions. And I think, as we talked about what wellness meant to us, a lot of you said to be connected, to be grounded in who I am, to be connected with other people. And so when you think about wellness, how does it connect to the practice of the work that you do? And and certainly we've touched on this a little bit, but just to kind of hone in on that question. And so Naomi, we'll go to you first.

Naomi Johnson: 31:46

It's gonna go back to like, kind of like a lot of what I had said, you know, it's just always, I'm a collaborator, as a leader, I like to listen to people see about that circle, my people, and I like to, I know that they are going to have ideas and opinions, and I want to hear them all, I want to hear all the perspectives, and then that gives me an opportunity to make an informed decision. So I think that yeah, it definitely does come back to like, just how I was raised in the community that was raised, you know, at Six Nations. And like, here, you know, you're taught about, you know, the traditional Confederacy, which is, you know, a system that was in place in this part of the world, you know, they estimate about 900 ad it existend, the system of a Confederacy of Chiefs. That each of those 50 men were put in place by a woman with a clan mother. So the women had a lot of, the women had a lot of power and say in deciding who the leaders were within the council, and if they didn't like the job that particular chief was doing, they could take him out, put in a new chief, you know, so and this is, you know, there's not a whole lot written about it. But there's definitely the basis upon which, you know, the American democracy was formed, it was directly influenced by the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. So it's in my DNA to work that way.*laughter*

Ezi: 33:23

Thank you. I mean, American democracy. *laughter*. They might have taken the idea, but certainly haven't kept. [group laughter] And, you know, a lot of places haven't, you know, in that true sense of what it means to be collective and do collective good so. You know, something [for them] to refer back to, to get a refresher.*chuckles* Dori how about you? Um, yeah, I feel like I feel like I've covered that question pretty well. I guess the thing, just to say more about it, is.... You know, one of the things that my, my faculty and my students say, that makes me....well, in some ways, unique, as a leader in the university is like how deeply empathetic I am. Like in the extent to which taking into account their feelings and emotions, as well as their thoughts is just as important to me. And, and putting myself in situations where I can feel very deeply the impact of the decisions that are being made upon the institution is really important for me as well. And so this, this ties back to wellness because I think, in long conversations with my therapist, like she says, My archetype in some ways is like the healer. So, so that, you know, the work that I've been trying to do in many ways, at OCAD is actually healed institution or create the conditions for healing in the institution. Right. And, and, and that has some really interesting implications in the sense of like, that means I have to, in many ways, mire myself in the toxicity that exists in the institution as a way to, again, help transform that toxicity, to remove that text toxicity. So that then, so then there's other possibilities for people to find a way. And so. So the important part, I think of the work that actually all of us seem to be quite doing in the world is is trying to heal in many ways. The soul wounds that have been caused by colonization, oppression, you know, discrimination, all of those sorts of things. And so they're the work that we're doing, you know, is is the work of like, whether it's planetary wellness, whether it's social wellness, whether it's cultural, and community wellness, that it seems all of us who are gathered here in this, in this conversation are deeply deeply dedicated to doing that kind of work. And so. So in that work, you can't be a source of toxicity yourself. And, and in that work, you have to have, in many ways, the strength and the boundaries to be able to know how much of the toxicity of others that you can take on to help them get to a place of like purification and purging. And so, I mean, the people that I'm most attracted to, and why I was attracted to even OCAD University as an institution is that it struck me as a place that was wanting, wanting to heal, like it made a call to say better want it to heal. And it's so it's so important, I think, for institutions to make that call to say that we want to heal. And it's also so important for us who, who want to do you know, who are who find the calling to do that work of healing that, um, that we answer those calls, right, we answer those calls, and how we can. Thank you. Zahra, how does wellness factor into your practice into the work that you do?

Zahra Ebrahim: 37:59

You know, I mean, I, I love what everyone has said, so I'm just going to build on it. And as Dori was speaking, the word that came to me was honesty. And that's been a big part of, you know, my personal practice, but also, you know, if we can, if I can borrow the healing practice, and in some way, you know, I very much think that the work that Monumental does with institutions, we carry a lot of the heaviness so that other people can sort of play in their lightness, and see what it feels like, you know. Right now, we're working with a massive federal institution, and we're just holding space for the Racialized employees, and specifically Black and Indigenous employees in that institution, to not carry all of it, let us carry some of it. But like, your backpack gets full vest, right. And it's hard to say that it's hard to understand how to heal when you're also sort of everyone's collectively healing together. And so, yeah, honesty was the piece that came up for me around, as a leader, it's hard to admit when you're sort of tapped out. And it doesn't mean forever, but sometimes when you say it, it's like, you know, it's, we want to find the name of this architect. I'm doing a panel this afternoon, and there's an architect Michael Lee Poy?

Dori Tunstall: 39:24

Yeah!

Zahra Ebrahim: 39:24

Yeah! He's on it. And, and, and one of the things I've fallen in love with just in reading his bio, and I've been thinking a lot about today, as I've been sort of ruminating on doing this panel with him was that he has this course that he teaches, in the Faculty of design another university at that, that's focusing on the hero's journey. And sort of parallel, the parallel between sort of the design practice in the hero['s journey]. This is my version of three lines in a bio but now I've written it into a full story and I'm totally in love with this practice.[Collective laughter] But, but but it made me think when I read that that like this archetype of the hero, and Sy I'm looking at you like you play the hero probably all the time and the arcs of the stories that that you are part of creating and shaping. I think that's where we become dishonest because we feel like we have to be heroic as healers or as empath, empathic leaders, empathetic leaders. And that I think we're just we're sort of buying into this narrative that is outdated, is patriarchal. That is super problematic. And and so, wellness, for me is trying to be honest, in a way that sort of, you know, to my answer before creates the conditions for others to be honest about their wellness, and what it means to be well until learn about what it means to be well. Because I really think that I'm just learning about how to be well, and because I'm a workaholic, like Sy, and I, I really, I met this, I'm at the start of my own journey around that. And so being, I think, I think honesty is something that as, as leaders, it's hard to employ when it comes to our wellness, because we need to demonstrate a particular type of resilience and that resilience is pushed through resilience. And that's not a world I want to live in um, forever. *chuckles* For now. It's kind of still the world I live in. But I'm trying to change that. So I don't know if that answers your question. But I, I just feel I feel like that's at the core of you know, and like Naomi, like working together with people, setting that sort of those principles of how we come together, is being honest about what wellness means for us, and where our boundaries are, where our limits are, and being willing to acknowledge when we hit those and it and just honor that it's all fluid, right? Doesn't mean I've hit it forever.

Ezi: 41:57

And that absolutely does answer my question. [Collective laughter] And gives more to it. So thank you for that. Um, Sy how about you?How does wellness factor into your practice?

Naomi Johnson: 42:10

I would say when I started out in my creative field, and so I started off in doing product design, moved into graphic design, and at a certain point, I had to be honest, it goes back to what you were saying, Zahra, about being honest, and realizing what your boundaries are, and you know exactly who you are as an individual. And when I came to a point where I realized I wasn't being fulfilled by the path I was taking, I had to be honest with myself, and it was very difficult because you spent a lot of money and time investing in this particular path. And then you reach a certain point, where you're like, I have a decision to make, am I going to continue on this path, I know, it's not gonna fulfill me, or I'm not going to switch at this late stage in my life. And I decided to switch. And, you know, it was, I decided to appeal to the inner child within me and do the thing that I've always loved to do, which was just create content. And doing that was literally, it just opened up the world to so many new experiences. And by proxy, I inspired a bunch of other people who I didn't even know were watching, I think that, for me, turned out to be a very healing, cathartic process, you know, and sometimes I get these messages on like, Instagram from people. And I'm like, it makes me cringe sometimes, because I'm like, I didn't know that I, you know, I don't I don't know what to say, I don't know how to respond. But at the same time, I just think back to the child version of myself and saying that could have been me looking up to somebody or reaching out to somebody and saying, hey, you done this thing. And I also want to do this thing. And I think one of the biggest biggest things for me is letting young kids, young Black kids specifically know that there is this thing. Like when I was a kid, I used to watch loads of cartoons and I never connected the fact that there's somebody behind the scenes, making these cartoons. I just love this thing! But I didn't know that it was a career path I could have chosen. And so one of the biggest things for me is letting young kids know, hey, there is this field that you can get into. And you can do the thing that you love, and just make it just bring in pulling back the curtain, almost, you know. And so in terms of the wellness, you know, that really, that's what drives me and that's what really encourages me to toggle off even though I'm like, you know what, I have a job to do and this job is bigger than me. But it also being honest, as you're saying again Zahra each other and understanding. You know, when I get to a certain point, you can burn out and you can take on a lot and you kind of sometimes get placed into a box where this responsibility shoved onto you, and you are now the mouthpiece for this particular thing. And if at any point I realized that I don't want to be that, I hold my hands up and I say I'm taking a break. I'm taking a step back because at the end of the day, we are all individuals behind the movement as well. And so being honest with that, and you know, following the process is a part of my wellness.

Ezi: 45:05

So I've asked a question about gentrification: what is gentrification? How does it, if it does, play a role in the work that you do? And I know gentrification is connected to the idea of neighborhoods and an influx of people. But we think about the neighborhood of our work, right? What is the locale of your work? What is the world of your work? And has it been gentrified; has been taken over? Are the resistances to that or maybe not? Is it flourishing in the way that it was meant to? Right? So maybe I'll take Dori.

Dori Tunstall: 45:43

Hmm! [Collective laughter] I mean, you know, like, I guess that question goes in so many directions, like, Are you talking about a place are you talking about like design in and of itself? And so, so I'll, I'll choose, as I'll choose as a location discussion to figure out I'll use design. One of the things that baffles me about the field of design is that somehow it's ignored, let's say, if you look from the Australian Aboriginal context, or so 65,000 years of making, and said, none of that counts, except for the last 200 or so years of making that happened in Europe.*laughter* And then everything else doesn't matter doesn't matter at all. So I think of so again, you know, gentrification is just colonization in cities. Right. And so there's a certain extent to which the process of making has has been colonized and gentrified by a group of Europeans who, who said our way is, the best way, our design is the best way. And and said, it's universal. Right? Like it's like, *with mirth* "and come join the universality of humankind by joining our Swiss, non, you know, serif, sans serif movement!" *chuckles*. Right? Like, and so, and that's the thing that I, I would say, that's the thing that we're battling against the most, in the, in the work that we're doing, where, again, I have, I have students who feel like, they have to be some, you know, 60 year old Swiss guy, to be a great professional designer, so they leave behind all their cultural baggage with, in some ways, the encouragement of some of our faculty, right, who believe in that ideology too. And even if they don't, you know, all the awards, and all the other things will glorify a certain look, a certain feel, that comes out of that sort of European 200-year tradition, and everything else gets put in a hierarchy of lesser, right? Put in a hierarchy of lesser. So. So the work that we're doing is around decolonizing design in particular, right? Because the thing for me is like design is the making of everything in the world, like we, we basically give physical and tangible form to our world through design, right? By design and through design. And so if you have, if you have practices that are so deeply embedded in people's everyday lives, and yet it is only reflecting, right, just one very narrow....Like, it's not even like the whole history of Europe, right!? *chuckles* It's like, one very narrow slice of people's history and time. And using that to oppress the making the traditions of making the, the the innovations in making of so many other people in the world like that. That's what we're that's what I actively trying to dismantle. That's what I'm actively trying to, to create a space in this very narrow definition of design for that 65,000 years minimum of making traditions by people all over the world and to have that validated in our curriculum, have that validated and awards, have that validated in magazines, and all those ways in which we seek to gain the esteem of our peers. That for me is is the work, right? That for me is the work in design. In other places it takes other forms, but in design, that's the work.

Ezi: 50:02

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for that. And yeah, gentrification is colonization, as folks have heard me say, in different episodes, you know, I talk about colonization in the plural in a sense about it's this exhibition of exhibition of power over, right. And it's a domineering, destructive, single story type of power. So, absolutely. Naomi, you ImagineNative. You know, you're truly rewriting the space of storytelling really. Refocusing, I would like to say, because that has always existed in our many cultures, right, the space of storytelling, so, so tell us how, you know, colonization or gentrification is being rebuked *laughter* in your space.

Naomi Johnson: 50:48

And I mean, kind of touch back on what you're saying about, you know, gentrification is about, you know, somebody's getting to decide what everyone is going to conform to what is the acceptable, you know, base, it's so it's so bland. And it's like, I think that's why like, as artists, and especially as artists, we're just so resistant to that trait, you don't want to be conformed, I don't want to be told versus in a way that we need to look or proceed or act or be. So for, you know, ImagineNative, the whole purpose in the core of what ImagineNative is, is being able to foster a space in which indigenous storytelling is presented from an authentic voice and an authentic way. And one of the things that I'm finding that, you know, it's been difficult work, but work that I know is so important is to diversify. And within that, you know, that monolithic term and be like, Indigenous is a very homogenous term, right. And we're an international organization. So how do we do work in a way that speaks to all those communities, not only across Canada, but North America? The world, right? So it's daunting, and I don't have a great answer for I just know, it's something that we're constantly asking ourselves, how do we do this? Well, better? Yeah. And that's what it's about.

Ezi: 52:25

Sy, how about you?

Naomi Johnson: 52:27

Um, yeah, I think it's just, to me, it's a big part about breaking away from what is seen as the standard, right, and that this idea that, especially within animation. I had an experience, which really brought everything home for me, and I, you know, posting on my Instagram, I'm posting all these characters character color, and somebody messaged me, and they said to me, oh, I really liked your portfolio. I really like your work. But why do you only do black characters? And I think he said to them, I was like, if you look at Pixar movies, have you gone to Pixar and said, why the majority of your characters white? Or have you gone to Disney as a white image of your princesses white and you've got like one black Disney Princess recently. And I said, you know, it, it kind of had a, you know, opened up a conversation between us. And but that really kind of showed me that, you know, in in people's mind, and even in my mind, sometimes there is a standard that's been created, which is what I call gentrification, colonization. That standard has been created, and it permeates within the way we think; the way we move around in the world. And so anytime you go against that, it's kind of like, Oh, shit disturber! Like, what are you doing? And I think, for me, that's what I'm interested in doing. I'm interested in breaking away from that mold. And I love seeing other people do it as well, and really opening up the world to different experiences. And recently, you know, somebody...wum what's it called...Flock Together! I dunno if you guys have seen it. Flock Together is a group of people, bringing people of color into birdwatching. And just looking at these different, these different industries, these different outlets and saying, you know, what, there is a space within all of these places for people of color, and we're going to create that space. And so when I look at gentrification, I look at the people that are breaking away from that mold. That, to me, is what I'm always trying to do. And I don't think it's anything that I'm active, you're deliberately. To me, it's a necessity at this point where it's like it has to happen, and for future generations and for my own wellness.

Ezi: 54:24

And, you know, I deliberately use gentrification as the term because and it connects to the idea about, you know, saying that there is a space and that space isn't on the outside, because gentrification of neighborhoods and of landscapes, right, is to push what was at center to the outside in a way, to take over that space. So that space, we don't need to make that space outside of the center. Right? We can insist that there is a space for us, and that it need not be changed to be good or better, or more beautiful, or more livable, right? Zahra how about you?

Zahra Ebrahim: 55:02

I was distracted for a second because I was thinking about my, when my mom and dad joined Instagram and how they went back to 2011. And liked everything I posted in 2012. And I got like 40 likes at once. And that will be Sy, this evening, *collective laughter* when I'm, you know, sitting down with a drink or something*laughter*. You're gonna get 40 likes, and then in a few days, you'll get another 40. So just hang tight, you know, my internet creeping is about to begin of all your beautiful characters.

Sy Blake: 55:30

*laughter*

Zahra Ebrahim: 55:30

You know, I was inspired sort of. Naomi, you talked about, in talking about stories, I think it's, this has been so central to my design practice: is narrative. And, and it makes like, it makes my heart race when I think about all of you and what you're talking about, and how gentrification for me has been about who decides what is legitimate practice. So Dori, you talked about makers, and making as a legitimate practice, and you know, the stories of legitimate practice, and you know, what you choose to illustrate and bring to life. And I think gentrification for me is about that gentrification of decision making, right? It's like gentrification of power, like in the power structures, where there is a single story about how the world is going to change and what inputs will drive that change. And so my design has always been fed by children and, you know, folks living in community and and, and because I believe their stories, you know, I'm not as artful a storyteller as probably, Naomi, all the people you work with, but like bringing, their...encouraging them to bring their stories to life. And that qualitative narrative, you know, you know, I'm a big fan of the Marshall Ganz public narrative structure, it's like, if we can find a way to tell our stories, that's legitimate data, I say, this kind of huge bias, because I took, you know, quantitative methods, like twice, because it couldn't wrap my little lizard brain around data. So there's a place and of course, I respect and honor that, and its place in society, and we need it. But I think it's come at the cost, or worship of sort of numbers and statistics, has come at the cost of seeing stories as illegitimate and as not meaningful inputs for change, as anecdotes, right? So when I listen to all of you speak, and I think about my own work, you know, what I wrote down as everyone was speaking the stories at the center, making as a legitimate practice. And, and in my work, it's always been about, you know, I watched and I was sort of a practitioner, you know, in Canada, on the front lines of when design kind of became central to the business world, and sort of jumped in with it to sort of more be a voyeur to see how it would be adopted and integrated with the values still whole. And I think what, what my work is constantly about is reminding people that there are many ways of finding legitimate inputs to drive change, and that to trust that those who are stewards, and those who are sort of meaningfully connected to narratives and stories that sort of Kindred are, are telling the truth, when they say it has power, right, because I just I think that I've spent a lot of time hearing people explain to me, what design is, what co design is what human centered, and I'm not saying that I'm like, I'm not even saying that I'm the person who I like, I know a little more, but like, you know, someone who's in a leadership position, who will tell me that, you know, don't need to go talk to people to have a co design process. And it's like, What do you mean, it's like, run a one hour session, and then we're good? Like, so, so it's, it's that right? It's like, it's I and I feel like, you know, design has been gentrified, and you know, in every sector, to sort of distill it down to the sort of quick and dirty version of what it is versus the Slow Food version of what it is, which is it takes time to build trust, build connection, hear stories, user stories, as inputs come together and see how the stories can create something new that we couldn't have created before. So you know, I think, yeah, maybe maybe I'll stop there. Because my lunch is wearing off, but*group laughter*. The cheese is wearing off now. But But I just, yeah, this idea of gentrifying who gets to choose what a legitimate practice is that can be at that center. I think, Naomi that you spoke about. It's really intriguing and important to me.

Ezi: 59:38

Thank you. So I always say that Indigenous, Black and Racialized people deserve a space to dream themselves into the future. And I say that because there's so much time spent on our agony, and our pain, and our you know, history of abuses. But what about tomorrow? What about even today? What are dreams that we're having today? So how are you dreaming? Creating or inspiring beautiful futures for Black, Indigenous and racialized people? Naomi, I'll start with you.

Naomi Johnson: 1:00:10

I think mine's gonna be really practical answer*chuckles*. I'm really, my full purpose and point of being right now is to make sure I'm healthy, strong organization, you know, whether it's, you know, and I mean, doesn't always like, not just but you know, the funds are there. But yeah, that's really important, but, you know, refund it well, so that we can keep doing the work we're doing, but also that my team, you know, is, you know, well, healthy, like mentally taken care of, you know. I try to make sure that we're doing a lot of work where we're, you know, talking to each other's people, instead of just, you know, ImagineNative employee robots *laughter*. think that's really important that, you know, you do...it sounds so simple, but those nice ways of connecting people, you know: celebrating somebody's birthday, or you know, somebody having a baby, let's still gather and try to celebrate that. So, yeah, I think that's, that's kind of what I'm doing. I'm just trying to keep the organization strong, and I want people to be happy, I want to be good, I want to be productive. But I also want people to actually genuinely want to be there. That's what I'm doing.

Ezi: 1:01:30

You're creating the foundation for dreams, right? Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. Sy, how about you?

Naomi Johnson: 1:01:37

Um, I think part of it, for me is being present and being available. Um, I found that for me, I always...one of the things that I love is having somebody directly to ask questions to, and to just converse with. And one of the things I said, when I first started getting a following on Instagram was that I want to reply to every message that comes my way as much as is humanly possible. And I find that one of the hardest things for me coming up was access to people. And you know, just asking a simple question, what software do you use? How did you learn how to do this? What resources could you recommend, right? And I as much as humanly possible whenever I get a message, and honestly sometimes it can be so draining, because you have to repeat the same question over and over again. But the impact on that one individual could be so great, right. So I always try to extend myself as much as possible to create that space for people to be able to reach out to me and ask questions, and give resources and whatever is at my disposal to be able to do, that's what I want to do. Because at the end of the day, we're not all going to be here forever. And I believe that part of my duty is to pass my knowledge on to the next generation of people. And as much as I can do that. So just being able to be accessible, and trying to maintain humility and being humble every step of the way. And not, you know, I've reached out to artists who I've admired and, you know, that has just caught my, my ties with them completely, because their response for me, was, you know, everyone has their threshold. And I just want my threshold to be a bit greater, because I realized that the burden A lot of us have, because sometimes it can be seen as a burden, and carrying the mantle and carrying the weight of it or making change, you know, it always comes with it, you know, it's it's, it's tough times. And so acknowledging that, from very early on, was a way for me to be okay, say, you know, I know that this thing is gonna come about, I know this thing is going to happen, the reality of it was probably a lot worse, as well. But acknowledging it in in the initial stages allowed me to be more prepared for it and say, Okay, cool. How am I going to handle it when it gets a lot? You know, and sometimes I just, you know, post on Instagram asked me anything. I'll have a little poll as they ask me anything. And I get questions from people. And the most basic thing, What software do you use, and I hashtag every time I post a hashtag the software, but somebodd was still ask me and I'm like, you know what, it takes two seconds to just respond to that person. So why don't I just do that? And that, for me is just maintaining the accessibility and sharing the knowledge, you know?

Ezi: 1:04:10

And I can attest to knowing that you, do *laughter*. You truly so that. Zahra how about you?

Zahra Ebrahim: 1:04:20

Hmm, well, there's a part of what I dream of versus just can we please get to a baseline of equity, justice and fairness, so that we're not like, like, just having to accept these very mediocre wins that are not enough, but like, we work so hard for them*laughter*. And, you know, I want the baseline to be higher. I think we all do. So that's a collective dream that I know is shared, you know, in this group and across so many others, but, you know, the, you know, the prayer train is like, going in that direction *luahgter*. Like, you know, get all the aunties, they're likely on that prayer tray. Let's lift the baseline. But I think the thing is I, in this, this feels like a really selfish response, we are talking about wellness. So I'm gonna just say it, which is like, you know, I um, I've lived my life as an introverted and extroverts world and learn to play. And one thing the pandemic has helped me understand is who I actually am.*chuckles*. You know, there's a, I keep referring to this terrible reference, you might want to cut this out, but I keep referring to the scene and Runaway Bride with Julia Roberts when she leaves the last guy, and then she has all the eggs, you know? She has fried eggs, she has scrambled eggs, and she tries to figure out what she likes. And I feel like I'm doing that in my introvert extrovert self, like I'm trying to figure out what I actually like. And because I feel like to be, you know, to hold space and to be accessible to all of your points, and you know, Naomi to hold space for all those great people that you lead and think about those things and birthdays, and you know, like, you do have to sort of give so much of yourself, if you're, if that's not your default. And you know, as I, as I move into a post pandemic, world, hopefully, you know, inshallah, post pandemic world, some at some point in, in the future, and we all do, I just hope that there's a, we can give some relief to our, you know, extrovert worship. And it's, again, not to diminish extraversion, it's just to say, we over indexed on designing leadership and change making environments for folks who have to be that way. And I know very personally, that I have spent my life, you know, I spent my entire life/career to date running organizations, and I've never been well, until now. And, and it's because of the pandemic, right, that I'm not pushing myself and that I'm not....Well, I am working hard and pushing myself, but the structures and the sort of what Dori was saying at the start mediating some things through technology is actually very good. For me. Not all things, but some things. And, and so I think that's my dream is that our world sort of shifts to accommodate more generally, obviously, more intersectional ways of being and one tiny sliver of that is helping create space for those who find their leadership in quieter ways.

Ezi: 1:07:23

Thank you, Dori how about you? Um, since you introduced this topic, one of the things I've been thinking about is, there's an essay in my head that I have to write down someday called, like, the alchemy of black joy. And what I mean by that is kind of two things. There's as a, as a community, or a set of communities, that the kinds of dehumanizing experiences that, let's say the Black diaspora has gone through that, regardless of that, as a community, we have maintained our capacity to feel the worse, despair, and some ways that many community can experience. And yet if you think about our, our musical forms, our form[s] of expression, our ways of dancing, our facility with language, that in many ways, I say many communities around the world look to Black people to experience the pathos safely, *chuckles*without having to go through it. Or if they are a community going through it, they're going through it with us, right. Um, but, but always be able to, you know, even in the most despairing blues song, there is that point of joy, that you are alive, to be able to sit and to say how you've lost your girl, you lost your dog, you lost your house, the master has his you know, throat on his... literally his knee on your throat, right? And yet, you're still here and you're still alive to tell your story for others to hear for others to find healing in that story. And, and, and in that story, that I am here I am present I am telling my story, that to me is the alchemy of, of Black joy. And so, so it's a thing where it's like, you know, I don't have to go off into afrofuturism although I like it. *laughter* It's a good place to live. Um, you know, I think I think the dreaming of now is the present of our children, right? Like, I don't, I don't even think about like, you know, I don't.... I think about what is it... what is it that I can do that can bring joy now? In this moment of being present, what can I do to bring joy now? Right. And the advantage that I have in terms of like, my engagement with design is like, again, design is just such a powerful tool of communication and connection, and tangibility, and interactivity around those things that, again, can bring us into deep, deep, deep pathos, right. But in that moment of presentness, and, and telling your story, and, and flowing with the thoughts and emotions that come from those experiences. Like, again, there's, that's, those are the moments of great joy. And that's, so that's, so I want, you know, like my students, I want my faculty like feel your feels, and, and, and metabolize that, and find in the, in the moment of being present, enough of the joy to tell your story, and, and that that story, moves people to action. And moves them to an action that, you know, gets us closer to, you know, what Zahra is dreaming of*laughter*. Like, you know, decolonization, more justice, more inclusion, more diversity, more respect, right, or respect.

Dori Tunstall: 1:11:58

I say, the experiment that we're trying to do at OCAD University. Is that is that, um, what I'm hoping that OCAD becomes is a place where other people learn to live under comfortably under Indigenous sovereignty. Like, like, when I think of not even the long term goals, like oh,*laughter* with this Indigenous cluster hire, we do it's now it's like, five years, five years *laughter*, that, OCAD university becomes a place in which people will learn how to live under indigenous sovereignty so that when indigenous sovereignty is universal, there is a group of people who are not afraid of that reality. They're not afraid of that presence. They're not afraid of that possibility. And they're lucky because I say, you know, the wonderful thing about the, you know, indigenous communities here, like, Oh, thank you, you know, Houdenosaunee Confederacy, because like, they're like generous. Other places, like go back to Europe, go back to wherever you came from. And they're, like, actually just honor the Two Row Wampum Belt*laughter*. Right, you got your little row, we got our little row, and, you know, so. So, there's no point was like, I don't even know why you're afraid. I don't even know why you're afraid. Um, so for me kind of, you know, returning to the beginning of my conversation, right? Is that, like, what, what I'm interested in is the, is the presence of decolonization as, as a space and a place in which, which people learn to live under indigenous sovereignty so that the reality of it is not frightening. All right. And the values, you know, again, it's like, the seven, you know, grandfather or grandparents teachings, like, like, yo, if you're living by this, this is a good life *laughter*. Right? This is a good life, you there's no reason to be afraid of this, right? Um, so that kind of all, you know, ties it back to me. Like I'm not like, again. I love afrofuturism. But I'm not I'm not I'm not I don't, I don't want to escape. Right? I don't want to escape. I want to be I want to be present in the work of taking despair and making it and making it.... alchemizing it into joy.

Ezi: 1:14:41

The alchemy of black joy. Turning lead into gold into gold into gold, into something better than gold even *chuckles*.

Naomi Johnson: 1:14:52

I think that's that's pretty crucial. And I learned something there as well from you Dori. And it's you know, I think a lot of the time we be so hyper focused on the future that we forget about navigating the present in a way that's meaningful and effective. Right? And just going back to what you're mentioning there, you know, because I love afrofuturism I love sci fi and I love transplanting myself into this future. But I'm like, you know, what, I'm still existing in a current timeline that is affected by my decisions now, other people's decisions my now and, you know, focusing on the president is just as important as it affects what the future looks like, anyway. Right. So, you know, navigating that in a meaningful way, I think is crucial. So I really enjoyed what you said there.

Zahra Ebrahim: 1:15:35

Just want to jump in and do which is like, I loved you know, I wrote down like, maybe like, 50% of what you said that at all for later. I can't wait till Friday...

Dori Tunstall: 1:15:46

It's recorded! it's recorded! *laughter*

Zahra Ebrahim: 1:15:47

*lauighter* I know, but it's just I need it today. It need it for my soul. And, you know, just the despair

Ezi: 1:15:51

And, you know, I think that ties into something you said and organizing it in such a way like i think that you know, goes back to you know, [unknown author name] for me, which is like, I think there's something about creating space, for despair, to acknowledge, to see that what's coming up is despair, and acknowledge it, and then see what's coming up, that is curiosity. And, like, notice all these things that are coming up and saying, oh, man, we need all of this to like, put into our beaker, turn into joy, right? Like, it's just not like joy begets joy. We need, safely,*chuckles* to identify and acknowledge all of these experiences that are coming up, recognize that they're real, you know, recognize sort of the constructs that created them, and, and then begin the process of alchemizing them. And I just I love that, that notion that it's one of the ingredients, one of one of a bunch of ingredients that we put in to the, to the, to the soup, you know, to make it delicious, and to make it joyful. It's back to delicious Ezi. [Group laughter] earlier, about, it's not, you're not always going to be happy. Not every moment is a moment of happiness. And you know, this notion of toxic positivity, that that is happening right now, where it's like, you know, think of good things, change your mindset *chuckles*. You know, and there is something to be said about reframing right in order to move forward. But in order to reframe, you need to acknowledge right? You need to acknowledge the frame that you're in. And so, and I think those are certainly excellent points. And yes, delicious, delicious points. *laughter*. Thank you. So as we come to a close, all good things must end *chuckles*. But as it comes in close, I'd like to give everybody their moment, their mic drop moment, if you will. What's one big/small/ impactful piece of advice that you might have for indigenous, black or racialized creatives, looking to create space for wellness through, or in, their work? And I will start with you, Naomi.

Naomi Johnson: 1:17:53

Sure. Um, I think for me, it's taking some time to actually really reflect on why you're wanting to do the thing that you're wanting to do. You know, like, be genuine with yourself. I'm gonna use myself as an example, you know, like, I had really thought I was going to be a painter *chuckles*. I was going to create and paint and that was going to be my life. But then when I really thought about, like, why, why do I really want to like, what, what's my driving force? And then honestly, it was for people to tell me, Oh, you're so great.*laughter* Look at what I made, and I am sipping wine and celebrating my greatness*laughter*. It's a danger. And like, to me, that's just such a hollow, it's such an ego driven, it's just not you know. When I really think about it, it was a good move, not to go that route. So I think if I can just, you know, harken back to what I said earlier, is finding purpose, you know, what's really going to make a difference in this present that we have right now. And we only have such a limited amount of time, you know, in this world, what are we going to do with it, make sure there's some purpose and there's some good and generating good for others as well as yourself. But I do hope for those that can paint and do paint well*laughter, that you do. We need you too.

Ezi: 1:19:26

Thank you. Yeah, be honest with yourself. Zahra, how about you?

Zahra Ebrahim: 1:19:35

Um, I mean, I have two parting thoughts, of course. I've been really liking this Angela Davis quote. Radical is mean simply grasping things by the root. And I really feel like you know, in this moment, you can choose what your radical means, because I think radical has been an exclusive term and I think to do things that, you know, ship systems in a variety of different ways, just acknowledging that, you know, identify whatever the root is for you. And that change is radical. And, and I just think that these, you know, outside definitions of it are not useful necessarily. And, and then the other thing is not mine, but it's borrowed from Lexi McKinnon, who I've really enjoyed getting to know recently. And she's been, I mean, I'm, I'm just basking in the glow of her idea of love led leadership. And just, just and I think what how I'm interpreting it is just not being afraid to decolonize the idea of professionalism, right, and let you know, and just hearing all of you and everyone, including you Ezi, you know, like, everyone, just so letting so much of themselves come through, and then that embodying a different kind of quality that I want to, you know, embody more of myself. And so I think, when I hear her talk about love led leadership, I just think about people who hold parts of themselves back because they don't think it's professional. And, you know, capital P professional, and I,I hear her say that, and I think it's just, you know, unleash it, unleash whatever love is for you. And I feel sorry, that sorry, that sounds like a cliche, but I've just been, it's been marinating in my mind since Lexie introduced the idea a couple months ago andbeen inspired by it.

Ezi: 1:21:38

Thank you, Dori, how about you? So normally, when I say goodbye to one of my students, or something, I always say stay in trouble. *collective chuckling*

Dori Tunstall: 1:21:52

And and it's two reasons. And this is before john Lewis's good trouble. So I mean, well, he said that earlier, but I didn't know he said that. So I was saying that for a while. But it's one of those things that, um, for one, it's unexpected, right? So it's a thing of like, you know, Zhara, getting into your professional is like the Dean is telling me to stay in trouble. *laughter* What does that mean? And so they laugh, because it's unexpected. But I say, especially to you know, you know, Indigenous, Black, and POC students and youth is that like, you know these systems are not designed for your enhancement, thriving, joy, [or] support. So if you're, if you, if you're in trouble with those systems, that means you're fighting those systems, right? It means you are, again, trying to find that space of authentic expression of all of who you are, in this system, which by design is meant to suppress and oppress that*chuckles*. So, so if you're in trouble, and even in trouble at my institution, because, you know, we got we're working, but we got a lot of work to do, right? If you're in trouble, then I know, you're okay. I know, you're still fighting. I know, you're not assimilating, right? I know, you're still fighting. So you know, stay in trouble, stay in trouble. My job is to, to make the conditions where you're less in trouble, right. But for now, until we reach that day, stay in trouble. Stay in trouble. Because I'm in trouble all the time. [Group laughter] The only difference is I can handle I can handle the risks better, right? Like, it's a thing. It's like, they can fire me as Dean. But the PR of that action they may not recover from. And even if they did so, I'm still a tenured faculty member. So they still would have to pay me for the rest of my life, right? So you know, so so I stayed in trouble and I can take, I can take, I can take the greater risk, right? Because I have the more protections in place, but even as young people I want them to know, like, it's okay for you to take the risk. It's okay states fight the system, right? Fight the system and maintain who you are. And that just means you're going to be in trouble. And I just need to make sure I have enough money to get you out of bail, or whatever I need to doto you to protect you and support you as much as I can. Right?

Zahra Ebrahim: 1:24:36

Wait, Dori does that apply to all of us too?[Group laughter]

Ezi: 1:24:43

*chuckles* It's, it's BIPOC universal, universal. [Group laughter]

Dori Tunstall: 1:24:51

Well, you know, even for my white students do because it's like if you're going to be if you're going to be a race traitor, right, like if you're going to give up that white supremacy that addiction to white supremacy, you're gonna be in trouble too, you're gonna be in trouble too. So I have to, I have to look out for you as well.

Ezi: 1:25:12

Sy last word?

Sy Blake: 1:25:15

Um, I would say stay in this day in the fullness of you, or grow into the fullness of you. I think back to this was like, back back back when I was listening to, to Lauryn Hill, her Miseducation album. And then a few years later, she came out with the Miseducation unplugged MTV version. And it just has so many gems. And it was like you're watching the metamorphosis of this amazing woman, breaking away this outer shell of the industry, and the protective layer that she kind of had, you know where she'd make herself up to go on stage. And then eventually, she was like, you know what, I decided to just come out here and just sing and make it about the music. And I just thought that was such a beautiful album, because you still got the same songs. But there was a rawness, and authenticity, and you could feel her joy and just embracing who she was. And I think that, you know, the same songs meant something so much different. When I knew the story I gotten behind, and I knew the pain that she put in and you know, she lived through the trauma she lived through the pain of all of those experiences made that album so much more relatable to me. And so that would be my advice is to just grow into the fullness of yourself. And don't shrink for anything and be 100% authentic as much as you can.

Ezi: 1:26:38

Stay in trouble. grow into the fullness of yourself. Be honest with yourself, take care of each other good advice for a beautiful life in a complex world. And while you're out there trying to live it, take good good care. Bye for now.